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It's True(?)

Tiny by Jeff on in Regular News

From what I can tell, Rafael Soriano really has been traded for Horacio Ramirez.

This is the worst trade the Mariners have made in a long, long time.

More on this later when I'm able to pull myself out of a pool of my own tears.

Update: As of 6:11pm EDT, there's still an air of uncertainty surrounding this deal. Half an hour ago it sounded all but done, but now the M's are denying it, soooooo...

9:04pm update: Bad news, everyone.

9:24pm update: I officially have no idea what's going on anymore, and I really don't give a crap. Something either needs to happen or not happen so we can be done with it and move on.

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Fuck this
there's no way I can root for the Ms with this.

by Matthew on Dec 6, 2006 2:05 PM PST   0 recs

I hope
Doyle gets traded to the Cardinals for like... Juan Encarnacion so he can play for a team I don't currently hate :(

by Graham on Dec 6, 2006 2:06 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Bill Bavasi must die...
I don't care about his family. I don't care about anything. This is the most fucked up, lopsided, dumb-ass, Woody Woodward conceived trade I've ever heard of. There's no way this improves the team and I guess the only thing I'm happy about is Bavasi is gone at the end of the year if my car doesn't run over him first. What a fucking worthless piece of shit.

by basebliman on Dec 6, 2006 2:06 PM PST   0 recs

Oh fuck.
Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Dec 6, 2006 2:06 PM PST   0 recs

KILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
BAVASSSIIIIIII FUCK THIS

by I'm NOT Corco on Dec 6, 2006 2:06 PM PST   0 recs

I hereby announce my boycott
Of Safeco Field in '07.

I had such wonderful plans for my 21st birthday party, too.

by Graham on Dec 6, 2006 2:07 PM PST   0 recs

I'll join you for your 21st
well go outside safeco just hammerd and throw eggs at it

by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 6, 2006 2:13 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

What bullshit....the same mentality
that brought us Slocumb....I cannot believe this.  
I killed a 12 pack just to watch it die...

by Dollar97 on Dec 6, 2006 2:09 PM PST   0 recs

Did we at least get some
damn magic beans too.....SHIT!
I killed a 12 pack just to watch it die...

by Dollar97 on Dec 6, 2006 2:10 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

yeah
we needed a guy named Ramirez so he went out and overpayed for one

by Trenchtown2 on Dec 6, 2006 2:50 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

BASICALLY.
FUCK YOU BAVASI FOR BREAKING USSM.

by I'm NOT Corco on Dec 6, 2006 2:10 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

And our hearts.
I honestly don't have any words.

by Jeff on Dec 6, 2006 2:11 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

OK, let's chill out.
Maybe we got Adam LaRoche too. The trade hasn't been announced yet. We could have gotten some other really neat things. WE HAD BBETTTER HAVE GOTTEN SOME OTHER REALLY NEAT THINGS

by I'm NOT Corco on Dec 6, 2006 2:11 PM PST   0 recs

Nope, LaRoche is being delt to the Pirates for
Gonzalez if Gonzalez checks out health wise.

We got outsmarted by the fucking Pirates.

Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Dec 6, 2006 2:12 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Well
I don't think LaRoche is included mainly because it looks like he's almost a Pirate.

They reportedly have a pending deal worked out, just waiting on the health report on Mike Gonzalez.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06340/744098-100.stm

by MfaninAlaska on Dec 6, 2006 2:14 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Bavasi just dealt Soriano
for a left-handed version of Ryan Franklin with less durability.

by OlyOle on Dec 6, 2006 2:11 PM PST   0 recs

Just. Wow.
I hear http://firebavasinow.blogspot.com/ is available...
Are we there yet?

by PositivePaul on Dec 6, 2006 2:11 PM PST   0 recs

I'm shocked.
Completely shocked. The anger hasn't come yet, but it will.
"I'VE GOT BLISTERS ON ME FINGERS!!"
--Stewie Griffin AND Josh Beckett

by Phildopip on Dec 6, 2006 2:12 PM PST   0 recs

I can't believe this
Horacio Ramirez? For a guy who was being talked about in Manny Ramirez rumors! Bavasi has to go. This move is completely irreprehensible.

by Trent on Dec 6, 2006 2:12 PM PST   0 recs

Funny or #$@#)*NWED UP
on how you think about it.  Earlier today we thought we were putting one over on the Braves, but it was really Bavasi who was getting bent over.

by Jed C on Dec 6, 2006 2:13 PM PST   0 recs

SASSSASASFRASHAASASASA
ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!

by JLC on Dec 6, 2006 2:13 PM PST   0 recs

my ass hurts
can someone please pull Bavasi Dick out of my ass

by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 6, 2006 2:16 PM PST   0 recs

Get a Frickin' Rope....
I killed a 12 pack just to watch it die...

by Dollar97 on Dec 6, 2006 2:16 PM PST   0 recs

I don't get it
Why trade Soriano for another pitcher who's worse?

by BrianV on Dec 6, 2006 2:16 PM PST   0 recs

Time to be the contrarian here.
It would seem we traded Raffy Soriano for a version of Jarrod Washburn who gets groundballs, based on the xFIPs, K/9 and GB/FB ratios, who's going to maybe make 3-4 million in arbitration.

As outcomes go, that's not too bad. I see no reason to prefer any one of the Meche/Lilly/Eaton/Padilla/Batista Axis of Overpaid Crap to Ramirez, and Soriano is probably the premium you have to pay to get him.

by eponymous coward on Dec 6, 2006 2:18 PM PST   0 recs

Hehe
Or maybe you could just start soriano.

by sergey on Dec 6, 2006 2:19 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Gee, if only the M's had thought of that.
Or, maybe since they have his medical charts, they suspect his arm would spontaneously combust, plus guys regularly lose a few feet off their fastballs going from the bullpen to starting. Soriano's 94 becomes a 91-92, it's not as impressive.

This team needs starting depth, and if it's this or signings off the FA market, this is an easy decision for me. If we're going to whiff on Schmidt, Matsuzaka or Zito, options based around LOW cost options in the rotation that don't involve long-term contracts are infinitely preferable, in my opinion. Soriano, unfortunately, is the price to get one of those.

by eponymous coward on Dec 6, 2006 2:27 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Ramirez is taking Thomson's place.
Tell me how this is even close to being worth it.

by Jeff on Dec 6, 2006 2:33 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I'm not convinced of that.
I suspect we're going to whiff on Schmidt AND Zito, and as such, the remaining FA options all involve various levels of suck.

That being the case, Soriano for Ramirez to fill out the rotation is understandable.

by eponymous coward on Dec 6, 2006 2:37 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

If you don't land a big name
Don't trade. Hold on to your chips, trade at another time.

by sergey on Dec 6, 2006 2:41 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

This offseason
the Mariners were going to add one expensive starter and one cheap starter.

They got their cheap starter. Now hold on to your hats, because the ride's just beginning.

by Jeff on Dec 6, 2006 2:43 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Not sure of that.
If Schmidt's gone, and Zito wants $Texas/eleventy billion years, I think the M's are going to go "none of the above", pick up another cheap option for the rotation, and find other ways to spend the money- buy out arbitration years for guys like Lopez and Betancourt, extend Ichiro and frontload the cash into 2007, whatever. All of which are perfectly justifable, and MUCH better than signing Zito to something ridiculous.

by eponymous coward on Dec 6, 2006 2:50 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I think buying out arb years of Lopez et al...
at this point is a little premature. Jose's power really fell off the table in the 2nd half and sure YuBet had a fairly solid season, but I'd like to see 2 in a row before I made a long-term commitment to either. But Bavasi will probably do it since he couldn't wait to deal Soriano for lefty Pineiro.

by basebliman on Dec 6, 2006 2:53 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Ok.
Soriano is just a cost of doing business... Maybe there is something with his health or mental state effects of the line drive last year, but to do business like this? To take something shiny to and to turn it into something dull and average but longer lived. Not buying it.

If trade stands as is, we as fans and M's roster suffered a major loss!

by sergey on Dec 6, 2006 2:34 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

You might want to wait for my anger to simmer
I want to set people on fire right now.

by chaney on Dec 6, 2006 2:20 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Mike Gonzalez gets Adam LaRoche.
Rafael Soriano gets Horacio Ramirez.

There's no way this is good for us.

by Jeff on Dec 6, 2006 2:21 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Comparing him to Washburn
Kick a man while he's down, why don't ya?

by JLC on Dec 6, 2006 2:27 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Washburn's fine at a decent salary.
The problem is his contract, not that he's the Worst. Starter. EVAR.

Sorry. Still not convinced this is the OH NOES everyone thinks it is.

by eponymous coward on Dec 6, 2006 2:35 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

WTF?
Dude, just shut up.  

by Jerry on Dec 6, 2006 3:05 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

No, YOU shut up. No backs.
But seriously...

We're talking about a very good RH reliever with a bad injury history vs. a LH 4-5 starter with not so bad an injury history.

ideally, yes, you'd like to swap Sexson, Mateo and Reed for LaRoche and Hudson, but it ain't happening.

Here's a little exercise. If I have a replacement level starter (5.5 runs/9 IP) throwing 180 innings and Soriano throwing 60 IP (3.0 runs/9/IP), that comes out to 130 runs. If I have a starter giving up runs at 4.8 runs/9 IP over 180 innings (Ramirez has been around a 4.7-4.8 xFIP the last 3 years), and a reliever giving up 4.5 runs per 9/IP (basically, replacement level), I net 126.

Yes, I know, high leverage innings, blah blah blah. I'm still not seeing the OMGWTFBBQ!!111 trainwreck.

by eponymous coward on Dec 6, 2006 3:26 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

No need for stats
You don't have to throw out numbers to understand the bottom line here:

Rafael Soriano is a very good reliever.  He is a valuable commodity.  

Horacio Ramirez is a #5 starter.  He is not good.  Of the things that a pitcher has a lot of control over (K's, HRs, BBs, GB%, staying healthy) he is sorta good at one (keeping the ball on the ground, inconsistent at one (HRs), and horrible at the other three.  The guy is not good.  

Guys like Soriano are tough to get.  They are valuable.  Guys like Ramirez aren't.  That is basically what it comes down to.  

I wouldn't mind if we picked him up for nearly nothing (Broussard?).  But if he is going to cost you a good player, just sign John Thompson.  Thompson is better, he will also be cheap, and he won't cost us a premium reliever.  

You can try to convince yourself that this deal is not a debacle all you want.  But if the M's do this trade, it will be a trainwreck.  

Seriously, you are basically telling a guy who just stepped in dog shit that the crap on his shoe could be a good thing.  Its not.  

by Jerry on Dec 6, 2006 3:43 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Why are Ramirez and Thomson exclusive?
Seriously. I'll take two cheap starters over overpriced Schmidt and Zito any day.

I also think you underestimate the number of guys who can go from being marginal minor league starters to effective relievers. Just in our system, Mateo was actually a pretty good reliever before his arm blew out in 2004 and he lost his good 94-96 stuff; Putz went from nothing to OMGHE'STEHAWESOME. Even Matt Freakin' Thornton has posted decent ERAs in 2 of his 3 years in the bigs, and he's just not that good.

Square by Brendan Donnelly, Ben Weber, Scot Shields, Chad Bradford and so on... and really, it's just Not That Hard to find good relief help. I won't be surprised at all if by this time next year Emiliano Fruto, Travis Chick or Yorman Bazardo is our next RHP relief stud.

Would I complain about Soriano/Sexson for Hudson/LaRoche? Not in the slightest. But I'm not as high on Soriano as other people are.

by eponymous coward on Dec 6, 2006 4:13 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

100% totally irrelevant
I happen to agree with your overall point about relievers being overrated and overpriced.  

But that is not what is important.  

If Bavasi makes this deal, he will be trading something with a high market value for something with a low market value.  

You can argue all you want about whether or not that market value is valid or not.  

But when you have a commodity that everyone else wants, you don't give it away for something that is easly acquired.  

Its a bad trade.  Everyone on earth realizes this but you.

by Jerry on Dec 6, 2006 4:18 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Market value, huh?
The going market rate for 4.8 xFIP starters in free agency like Ramirez is something like 25-40 million dollars over 3-4 years.

If y'all can show me one aside from Thomson we can pick up for a cheap contract or spare parts like Mateo, Reed, Broussard and so on, great.

I think you overestimate the value of a guy with bad injury history who's pitched zero MLB innings since getting a shot to the head has.

by eponymous coward on Dec 6, 2006 4:46 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Whatever
I totally disagree with you.  

Everyone else does too.  

Seriously, go read any message board out there that has commentary on this proposed trade.  

Rotoworld.  USSM.  This site.  mlbtraderumors.com.  Braves blogs.  

I don't remember a trade that has been so universally shunned.  Seriously.  There is very broad consensus that this trade would be a horrible decision for the M's.  

If Bavasi makes this deal, everyone will be calling for his head.  Everyone but you, apparently.  

by Jerry on Dec 6, 2006 5:00 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I don't want to moderate or anything
but I would appreciate a friendlier tone here.

EC is right that Ramirez has some value in this market. Healthy, he's a 30+ start guy capable of giving you an ERA in the 4.50-4.75 range. It's just that Soriano's value is way higher, and should net something substantially better than a #4/5 starting pitcher.

by Jeff on Dec 6, 2006 5:06 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Sorry
You're right.  

EC is not the enemy.  

Bill Bavasi is.  

by Jerry on Dec 6, 2006 8:17 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I am trying to be a contrarian as well...
Ramirez has good GB rates, and did a good job last year of keeping the ball in the yard.  However, his K/BB rate is terrible.  And while Soriano has injury concerns, HoRam is no Barry Zito (health-wise) himself.

We just traded one of the best middle relievers in the game for Horacio Ramirez.  

Eeesh

by tait644 on Dec 6, 2006 2:31 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Rotoworld reports
that the Braves traded LaRoche to Pittsburgh for Mike Williams.  Is it at all possible that this is some kind of three-team deal sending Soriano to Pittsburgh and LaRoche to the M's?  

I don't know...I'm reaching - but it seems odd for the Braves to acquire Williams and Soriano in the same hour.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playernews.aspx?sport=MLB

by OlyOle on Dec 6, 2006 2:21 PM PST   0 recs

maybe
I hope so. Bavasi can't be that dumb, can he?

by phil333 on Dec 6, 2006 2:23 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Why?
The Giants/Braves/M's rumor had the Braves getting Benitez and Soriano.

Getting Gonzalez makes MUCH more sense - he's very, very good and now gives the Braves a SICK bullpen.

BTW - I think it is funny that so many of us thought Bavasi was going to outsmart Scheurholz.

This deal reeks of desparation after the Schmidt signing...

by tait644 on Dec 6, 2006 2:27 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Bavasi didn't just get outsmarted by Scheurholz
He got outsmarted by Dave Fucking Littlefield.

He's done. If this is true, he doesn't deserve the job. I've given him so much credit and all he does is continue to ruin the club. Unreal.

by Trent on Dec 6, 2006 2:29 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Why not?
Littlefield just outsmarted Scheurholz.

by JLC on Dec 6, 2006 2:30 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I'm all for hope right now
It's the only thing we have left.
Go Fo Broke!

by eknpdx on Dec 6, 2006 2:22 PM PST   0 recs

Don't fool yourself
You have a couple of days when it seems like your team is going to play it smart, when it seems like good things are going to happen, and then your team does something like this. Hope? It just got taken out back and beaten to a pulp.

by ajpprc on Dec 6, 2006 2:31 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Sooooo....
When is the Bill Bavasi cock punch picture coming out?

Scruffy?

Are we there yet?

by PositivePaul on Dec 6, 2006 2:23 PM PST   0 recs

When he removes his dick from my ass
and I can spin around and punch him square in the nuts

by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 6, 2006 2:33 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Which is worse?
The desperation of this deal or the Slocliff Heathcum deal of the 90's?

by tkballer22 on Dec 6, 2006 2:29 PM PST   0 recs

Heathcliff, easily.
This is still awful. I find myself hoping that those 93 (not 97) mph fastballs Soriano was throwing all year are indicative of an impending arm explosion. And that makes me want to cry.

by chaney on Dec 6, 2006 2:32 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Slocumb was still worse...
but at least we went to the playoffs that year. Ain't gonna happen here.

by basebliman on Dec 6, 2006 2:36 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I don't think he got us there
And I think we would have made it a few more times with Varitek and Lowe.

I'm going to go take a shower now and then I'm going to blow up America. I might blow up Canada too if I'm still mad. Take shelter.

by chaney on Dec 6, 2006 2:43 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Now it's settled in..
and I'm over my anger.

And now, I'm just kind of sad. I feel defeated. I feel sick. i just want to cry right now.

by I'm NOT Corco on Dec 6, 2006 2:30 PM PST   0 recs

Almost there -
Denial - no way Bavasi does this, he's not that stupid.
Anger - you dumb @)#$&@$23!! Bavasi is TeH SUKKIESSSST!!!
Fear - sweet merciful crap, Fire Bavasi before he trades Felix for Soriano (potential closer for young SP).
Bargaining - call M's FO.  If you fire Bavasi, Lincoln, Armstrong, and Grover I'll buy 20 season tickets - I promise - I have cash!
Acceptance - well, the M's weren't going to win in 07.  Might as well make it more likely we'll have a new front office after a 4th straight year in the cellar.

by Jed C on Dec 6, 2006 2:42 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Three things
  1. If you've got your auto-refresh USSM program running, please stop.  We don't particularly enjoy going down every time the Mariners make a move.  
  2. Ramirez is better than everyone is giving him credit for.  Lefty groundball guys can't succeed without strikeouts.
  3. This trade still sucks.  They should have gotten much more.

by davidcameron on Dec 6, 2006 2:35 PM PST   0 recs

Err
Lefty guys can succeed without strikeouts.  

by davidcameron on Dec 6, 2006 2:35 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Can or Can't succeed without strikeouts?
because that comment doesn't make me feel any better

by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 6, 2006 2:36 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

My guess is...
Bavasi did not want to go into spring training with his rotation looking like:

Felix
Washburn
Thomson
????
Baek/Woods/Feierabend/etc.

I think the team has lost out on Schmidt and is going to punt on Zito getting a zillion dollars on a 5 or 6 year deal, as well they should, and also correctly realizes that everyone else in the market is a ticking time bomb of mediocrity at severe risk of being overpaid. As such, they should be assembling low-cost, low-commitment viable starting options. Ramirez counts as one.

It sucks that the price was this high, and in an ideal world Soriano would be one of those low-cost options. I suspect the M's don't think he's viable for that role, though. I think the M's may have overpaid some now to KNOW they've got a spot locked up before spring training, which is certainly an arguable point (I'm not as high on Soriano as other people are), but this isn't Slocumb for Varitek and Lowe, either.

by eponymous coward on Dec 6, 2006 2:46 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Thing #1
Well might it be said of Mariners fans in general that "We don't particularly enjoy going down every time the Mariners make a move."

There are so many levels of metaphoric significance there. Beautiful.

by Hoft on Dec 6, 2006 2:47 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Ha Ha
You guys (hopefully temporarily) banned me to conserve bandwidth?

by I'm NOT Corco on Dec 6, 2006 2:50 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

This sucks
I had my hopes up for the 3-way deal to go through with the Braves and Giants, and now I hear we traded Soriano for this?!?

I hope the M's medical staff knows something we don't about Soriano, or this is going to piss me off!

"Ooh! Ooh! I have one of those things, like a headache with pictures!"

by Thingray on Dec 6, 2006 2:42 PM PST   0 recs

Soriano's fine.
He's a little fragile, but so is Pedro. And the head thing isn't a concern at all anymore.

by Jeff on Dec 6, 2006 2:44 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

There is some hope....
http://www.stltoday.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=424640&sid=dc75bbd6b45a4f3390ddc9c4d8943239  But, Bavasi has some explaining to do....and then some packing.
I killed a 12 pack just to watch it die...

by Dollar97 on Dec 6, 2006 2:43 PM PST   0 recs

were was the hope in that?
I seriously couldn't find anything

by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 6, 2006 2:48 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Schmidt is better than what we've had
Lets face it....the M's always get hosed in dealings....because the front office has no frickin' clue what it is doing.  Sending Bavasi to the winter meetings with an agenda and limited authority to ACT hamstrings him.  

Was this dumb?  Yes.  Fiscally prudent?  Yes.  Dictated by a front office wanting to not spend a fortune on pitching, YES.  

I killed a 12 pack just to watch it die...

by Dollar97 on Dec 6, 2006 2:52 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Ummm
Ramirez makes more than Soriano does/will, and there are other starters out there that can be had for less than Ramirez, while not giving up Soriano.

If you want to go cheap, don't give up good players for the right to do so.

by Josh on Dec 6, 2006 2:56 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Not necessarily
Ramirez made more than Soriano last year ($2.2 million to $450,000), but primarily because Soriano missed virtually all of 2005.  After Soriano's good year and Ramirez's bad/hurt year, their salaries will probably be pretty close this year -- somewhere around $3 million.

by G_ on Dec 6, 2006 3:01 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Wait a minute
This isn't just about the front office not wanting to spend a fortune on pitching, this is about them not wanting to spend a fortune on mediocre pitching. Frankly I would rather they fill out the rotation with a bunch of mediocre arms like Ramirez rather than hand Schmidt or Zito a 4 or 5 year deal at 15+ per.

Of course that doesn't justify getting hosed on this deal, you should have been able to pick up someone like Ramirez for a lot less than Soriano.

On the other hand losing a player like Soriano and picking up a fungible part doesn